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Author Topic: Post It Here?  (Read 562 times)
Ted Byrne
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Do you look at or through a photo?


« on: May 02, 2010, 12:09:23 PM »

Odd how tech morphs onward at speeds quicker than a politician's ability to change his story....

But it does and it leaves us wondering what, RIGHT NOW, is classic photography and what is experimental? The fact is that this image was handheld, taken through my Canon D20's EF-S 10-22mm (f3.5-4.5) at 10mm. I believe the ISO was about 800 and the aperture opened for 1/4 of a second. Nothing surprising or unusual.

In post processing I did carve into the shadows somewhat to balance the final dynamic range. But there are no exotic filters involved nor even any real cropping - it is, I think, full-frame, or super close to it (the D20 has a parallax problem of sorts - giving you a tad more than you intended).

And yet... yet... this image does not appear "classical" does it? And there is no way, back in my Nikon Fv days, that I could have created this. Even though it is exactly what I intended to create as I composed and metered for the final image.

I wonder what "classical photography" will be tomorrow? Or even a few hours from now?




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eob
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 08:12:03 AM »

Ted, I think that, for the sake of clarity, the term "classical photography" is better suited to a composition of the content and "straight photography" - to a purely technical treatment of that content (for instance - post processing or lack thereof). I sense (maybe I am wrong) that you mix those two terms a bit. Could you, please, elaborate on that?
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eob

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Ted Byrne
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Sr. Member
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Posts: 389


Do you look at or through a photo?


« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 11:24:21 PM »

Hmmmm.... you open a door to a deep... deep whorl.

Does "classical" demand Dektol? Agfa film? 35mm? 4X5 medium format? 8X10 platinum printing? Does classical allow only pre-processing? Does it permit only developer/fixer/water trays? Can "Classical" be burnt in? Held back? Will 'Classical' permit polycontrast filters and paper? Cartier-Bresson denied that photographers had a license to do color... that the classical was only performed in monotone.

What of the digital darkroom does classical permit?

Or... does "classical" as you suggest deal only with content. Merely with it? Was Man Ray in any way "Classical"? Pete Turner? May "Classical" be representational? Or may it be conceptual? I guess it is clear that abstract art cannot be classical? Or is modernism now classic in this world of post-post-post-post modernism? What happens to the avant guard when it ages? And in its senility, may it merge into the whorl of classics?

Okay.... here is something which is NOT classical photography....


Right? Yeah, it is teased from photography. The composition and palette are quite classic... savagely so. The image is almost tyrannized by the rules of the classics. But.. but... it is no longer considered photography by people who consider what photography is. But... will it become considered photography? And at that point, will it begin to merge and morph into the definition of things we call "classical"?

We can agree about what classical isn't, if we can agree that this image isn't it. But... the original post way up there... It has all the pieces from the "Book Of The Keepers Of What Is Photography" so... I think that, yeah, it seems to be classical in spite of the fact of its trip through the digital darkroom as opposed to dippings in developer, fixer, and water pans... 


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eob
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2010, 05:10:10 AM »

This is an important and fascinating topic for anybody interested with art in photography. I will certainly pick it up after I'm back from my vacations (just a view days left)...
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eob

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eob
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 07:38:49 PM »

Well, I was hoping that - in the meantime - someone else will express their own opinions in this matter. I still hope that we all will chip-in into this discussion, but for now - here is my take:

How is the word "classic" described by a dictionary? As something that is "judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind"; "a work of art of recognized and established value"; or "a school subject that involves the study of ancient Greek and Latin literature, philosophy, and history". All those explanations imply a condition of an interplay with a specific time period or a point in time.

Is the Lensbaby a part of "classic" photography? Is the lens-shift? Is the Lomo? Is the camera-tossing? Is the flash? Is the cyanotype? Is the pinhole? Is the Photoshop plug-in? Depending on a point in time, every one of them can be treated either as "experimental" or as "classic". In case of photography, I think, referencing (or factoring in) the time and/or history is still not adequate enough. Maybe we should wait a few more generations?...

To give you an answer, Ted, I was going to start digging into meaningful and deep research, precedence, opinions of experts of all kinds, etc. Then, I thought, that was not really necessary. The truth is, the term "classic" is not and can not be precisely and exactly determined by anybody. Everything depends on the context, in my view. And that means that every type of photography can be explained as either the "classic" - or - completely to the contrary. Depends on who you ask and what is that particular person's interest and purpose in photography. At best, the answer will let you know what that particular person's interest is. At worst, you will get more confused than before posing your question. Roll Eyes

Fortunately, the art is flexible enough to encompass many styles, techniques and workflows. It is up to an artist to choose his options. And it is up to viewers to decide whether or not they like artists' choices. Freedom on both ends... Tongue
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eob

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Ted Byrne
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Do you look at or through a photo?


« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2010, 02:31:13 PM »

As usual your perspective is thoughtful and useful E. And it leads me to wonder to what degree craft defines an image? Or even more succinctly– I fear that among a disappearing but influential group, gear is a necessary condition in the way a media is classified.

How long has it been since videographers were  considered photographers? I mean, for practical  purposes, when was the last time that videographers  entered their work in a photographic competition. And vice versa? Apparently the complexities of motion, sound, and editing have added more than degree to what video artists do.

About six months ago, I was virtually driven out of Canon Photography On The Net… a forum where I won considerable numbers of awards. Why? I posted this image with the caption… “This Is A Photograph”.  And I posted it in the “Photo Sharing Section’ entitled,  “People”.


Note, there is a POTN section entitled, “Still Life, BW & Experimental”.  The response was immediate, negative, and overwhelming.  I even received some sixty emails, all of which were negative, and many of which were rude, abusive, and personal.

And all of the responses were in answer to the title, which was taken as a question, challenge, or insult! And all felt that the title was wrong.


There is enormous discomfort among a segment of photographers concerning digital as opposed to chemical darkroom enhancement.  Look we all know that pre-processing imposes itself at least as dramatically as post processing upon a final image. Still, there appears to be total acceptance of pre processing among those who want to define what photography is.

And there seems to be similar acceptance to chemical or mechanical post processing techniques regardless of their complexities.  For some reason all of that comes under the umbrella of “natural” or even “classical” photography. However, pixel enhancement is viewed with  suspicion at best, alarm at the extreme.

The word “manipulation” is the pejorative most easily employed to dismiss the photographic validity of virtual techniques which… “go too far”. And when pushed hard enough, it quickly becomes apparent that any virtual techniques are considered – like the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent. Hence even contrast and dynamic range adjustments  are accepted grudgingly at best. While purists will accept that digital cameras produce images which they can consider to be photographs… They are VERY uncomfortable with allowing anything but virgin images to have that name.

And yet… every digital camera does some level of post processing while and even after it saves an image to disc. I’m reminded of purists who opposed any image cropping as inorganic… suggesting instead that only the dimensions imposed by optical and mechanical engineers upon the virgin frame could be considered to be acceptable photographs.

Which brings me, finally, to your response to my query, “Where should I upload this image?” The limiter here is in the category choices. And this category under discussion is entitled,  “Classic Photography”.

If we can strip away any discussion of craft or gear, the image above is of an ancient alleyway  at night. The composition is rigidly classical, along with the palette, shapes, and forms. It is almost preternaturally in sharp focus indicating a lot of attention to exposure trade-offs.


And there of course the technician enters the picture… quite literally. Because prior to digital post processing tools, that sort of exposure precision was simply not possible on any color film. That degree of simultaneous piercing of shadow and highlight detail was beyond the dynamic reach of film technology. It is the technician who understands that and it is through technical considerations that the composition, palette, forms, shape, and texture of this image result in any controversy over whether this image should be posted in a category called, “Classic Photography.”

Right?

And that means that either digital photographic artists will spin off from photography (or be drummed out of photographic circles) just as videographers have as they pursued there interests not just down the hall… but in entirely different buildings of the art world.  Or it means that the Luddites will  find themselves isolated behind walls of their own creation.

In fact, a professional photographer who lacks the technical competence to do what I did with that image up above will go broke in today’s world. Hence there is no debate among professionals as to whether that image is classic photography or not. They simply do not care.

And to the overwhelming number of amateur photographers who now employ varying degrees of digital techniques to achieve their goals…. The controversy over whether  either of the images I’ve posted in this thread are photographs… that controversy simply does not exist. The answer is, “Who cares?”

Sooooo… I’d like to conclude that we have to determine whether something is photography and or classical photography, not on the basis of gear or technique, but on the basis of its content. And based upon that standard, there is no doubt now in my mind that the original image on the top of this thread… is “Classical Photography”.  Grin Grin Grin
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eob
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 06:22:53 PM »

Well, from the sheer length of your post above (as well as from many of your previous posts) , I gather that the topic of what is and what is not artistic, or even straight photograph, is really bugging you. Personally, I tend not to loose my sleep over this matter, but I will try to explain my stance anyway - despite my limitations in using English (which is not my native language, as you know).

I will start from the end and then I will proceed with my explanations, if you don't mind...

Your conclusion in determining whether some photograph is or is not "classic" just on the basis of its content seems to me to be a bit too simplistic. I see "classic" as a certain combination of content, composition and technique.

First of all, here is how I perceive a process of creating any kind of photographic image (artistic or otherwise). I start with an idea - which may be a purely intellectual one, or induced by what is presented to my eyes in my environment, or is a reflection on the inspiration I've got from looking at other people's images. Next comes mental composition - the way I imagine my idea in a finished image. At this stage I may make choices about light/background/location, etc. After that, I select the specific equipment for the task (most significantly: the lens). Then, I choose the settings I feel are most appropriate. I think about posing, perspective, angle of view, viewpoint, scale, depth-of-view, direction and quality of light, motion-blur, etc. After the shutter has been released, I enter my post-production stage. I start with the most basic manipulations: exposure, tonal range, color-correction and cropping. As a result of that, I get the most "straight" photograph I can think of. Under no circumstances I can eliminate any of those manipulations - just like I can not eliminate the composition, for that matter. Then, if I feel that the photo may still benefit from additional treatment in Photoshop, I try some farther processing (I can afford that, if I don't work with a photo-journalistic or documental type of an image). I don't shy from combining several images into one composite, either.

I think that the idea of a photograph, the mental composition, the proficiency with using photo equipment and darkroom or digital studio are all enormously and equally important components for producing any kind of a photograph. Each one of them is a separate skill on its own. Now, depending on the kind of a photograph, each one of those components of a creative process assumes a different level of importance. Most obviously - for a photo-journalistic type of an image, the darkroom/digital studio element probably plays the least significant role, whereas for an experimental type, it goes all the way up on the level scale. But even in a photo-journalistic image the correction of colors and contrast is completely "natural" and does not constitute a "forgery of the reality". Similarly, for instance, a landscape image needs the composition and the darkroom/digital studio skills to be on the same level.

Now, "experimental" may mean unconventional composition and/or unconventional technique (that includes a digital "manipulation", of course). Both are valid approaches, in my opinion. I may not like it when the artist "goes too far", but that does not mean that I deny the creator a validity in his/her efforts in creating art. I can, though, ignore those extreme efforts - and that is the ultimate freedom in creating and consuming art (as I mentioned in my previous post).

To sum it all up in one paragraph, I think that the approach of "purists" is silly, ignorant and arrogant. Flexibility and innovation is always treated with distaste by conservative minds. Now, I do not imply that experimentation is THE way to go every time we feel like snapping a picture, but denying the validity of it is just a sign of a smallness of intellect and/or not being at home in the artistic world at all.

So, to answer your question about your sample images being classic photographs, or photographs at all, I would have to repeat after you: Who cares? Your art (or lack thereof) will not be ultimately judged by today's "purists". I wouldn't worry about them... Smiley
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eob

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